—–UPDATE—–
After a lovely conversation with John of Project M, the founder of PieLab in Greensboro, AL, he generously offered to let me keep using the name. I’m very grateful to have his support.
—————–
Help.
I have received a couple of angry messages since starting my Kickstarter Project about my name being the same as a very successful PieLab in Greensboro, AL. I have to tell you, it makes me sick in my heart. When I was going through the process of brainstorming names, I kept coming back to pieLab because is was simple, short, and hinted at the game strategy aspect of the cart. I had several names such as Wonder Pie Spot, Pookie Pie, and Grumble Bunny, but none of them communicated that this wasn’t just a cart where you went up and ordered and everything was as usual. My biggest fear was that there was a well-known co-working space in town called PIE (Portland Incubator Experiment). Well, what can I do about that? They decided to name their tech space after my delicious treat. Nothing to be done. My name will have “pie” in it somewhere.
When I decided to go with the name pieLab, I went to register the name and discovered that it was already taken. I had never heard of the PieLab from 3000 miles away. I went and had a look at the pielab.org site. I saw their essence as being a collaborative of graphic designers where to community is invited in to share ideas. I watched their video where they cut up a pie and pour some coffee. I decided we were not similar enough to be a problem and registered @pieLabPDX.
With the negative comments, I’ve gone back through the site to discover whether we really are TOO similar. I downloaded the press release. I read the press coverage. There was a lot I didn’t learn about the project in my initial run through. It’s grown into training people to be chefs and work in retail. They have outreach to youth. It’s an amazing program. I didn’t realize how thoroughly it had been covered by GOOD, ID Magazine, Fast Company, etc. People in their community have obviously been touched by their efforts.
A lot of people love their PieLab in Greensboro, AL. I can see how they would be upset for anyone to threaten the organization that’s done so much good.
If I had to distill them down into three words they would be community development, graphic design, and pie.
We have that last characteristic in common, it is true. But I’m not inviting collaborators and it’s not a community space. I’m not training others or doing youth development. And yes, I do graphic design occasionally as that is my background, but this cart is not about visual design.
My entire reason for building this is that I’m fascinated by game strategy and behavioral economics and want a way to tweak every possible subtlety of the process of selecting and paying for a humble piece of pie. The pie is the bait for my human subject rat maze experiment. I don’t see any hint of this in their project.
I am unabashedly copying an idea, without a doubt. This is a recreation of a mystery cafe as told by Cabel Sasser as I have made clear from the very beginning.
For goodness sakes, if I was going to straight copy them, at least I’d have the good sense to change the name if I was trying to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes.
I feel like pieLab is a rather obvious name. I doubt Barista coffee would be surprised to find that there is another clever coffee house out there sharing their name. I could see that it would be a big problem if another one opened up around here. States protect names within each state for good reason. PieLab is not trademarked as far as I my research shows.
So what to do now? The name was sincerely a coincidence. I certainly did not anticipate this blow back and don’t wish to cause undue harm to their brand. It’s not like I’m so far into the project that I can’t redirect. I am loathe to do anything until the Kickstarter project is finished if only because I just cannot face reworking the stop motion video, and I don’t want to risk losing momentum. Thoughts?
————-
UPDATE
————-
To John (leader of Project M PieLab in Greensboro, AL,
I can see that there are good folks on your side who love you and have come out swinging to defend your work.
I offer my sincerest apologies. I had not heard of your work before I conceived the name. I knew you existed when I registered the twitter account, yes.
I didn’t realize how much recognition you’d received. If I had, I wouldn’t have gone forward with the name.
This food cart is a small, quick project for me in my spare time. I have full time job plus a handful of other side projects. I just wanted to make a decision and move the project forward. I didn’t give it the full due diligence.
Sometimes you make a quick decision and it’s wrong.
I will change the name. Please grant me a little time to recollect myself, find and properly research a new name.
17 comments
BWJ says:
Jun 18, 2010
PieLab, first and foremost is about pie. It began as mobile, pop-up pie stands in different cities along the East Coast and the Midwest before setting up its permanent roots in Greensboro, AL.
PieLab’s mission statement is “Pie + Conversation = Ideas.” Pie is the FIRST word in that equation. When you walk in the door, the first thing you encounter is the open kitchen where the pies are baked. Pie is the catalyst for everything that came after.
PieLab was recently a finalist for a James Beard Award in restaurant design, it’s a pie shop as much as it is social experiment.
You claim that the name “was sincerely a coincidence.” But I personally contacted you while you were still brainstorming names on twitter, to inform you of PieLab’s existence—which you acknowledged by saying “thanks, you hadn’t done your research.” Now you have.
We may only be in Greensboro right now, but PieLab has partners in various cities across the country discussing future locations. 3000 miles is no distance at all in a flat world.
When your Kickstarter video closely resembles the one on PieLab’s site and your logo matches versions used on PieLab products, it’s extremely dishonest to claim this is a sincere coincidence.
PieLab is a pie shop with an unexpected experience for everyone who engages with it. If you want to say that your idea is completely different, go for it, but you’ll be sincerely lying to yourself.
Charlotte says:
Jun 18, 2010
Did you Google Pie Lab when you were choosing your name? It seems like that would be a normal thing to do. It makes sense for you to research those things on the front end because of your work. I can’t help but draw the conclusion that you knew about Pie Lab and chose to go forward with your plan. I invite your readers to Google Pie Lab & see how many pages of links come up. I almost backed your Kickstarter project because I thought you were somehow connected to Pie Lab. And, Pie Lab has national recognition, so it really doesn’t matter how many miles Portland is from Greensboro.
Wade Kwon says:
Jun 18, 2010
“When I decided to go with the name pieLab, I went to register the name and discovered that it was already taken.”
“The name was sincerely a coincidence.”
Both of these statements can’t be true.
Have you contacted PieLab? You obviously know how to reach them by phone or e-mail. Maybe you can license the name.
But continuing to raise money for yourself while appropriating another organization’s name is wrong.
Wade Kwon says:
Jun 18, 2010
You added to your Kickstarter page:
“::: This project is in no way affiliated with the Project M PieLab in Greensboro, AL :::”
I doubt that if I started a fund-raiser called “American Heart Association” and put a similar disclaimer up that it would be in any way OK.
Do the right thing: Stop using the name until you secure permission to do it. Otherwise, you’re profiting on a name from a nonprofit organization.
Bob says:
Jun 18, 2010
Unfortunately, you are going to need to change your name.
While PieLab and PieLabPDX may be different entities and conceptually different Trademark categories (Registered or not), the underlying reality is that “PieLabPDX” APPEARS to be “Pie Lab, “the Portland affiliate,” which, clearly, it is not.
Additionally, it appears you also casually created an implied relationship with PIE (Portland Incubator Experiment), or would be riding off likely Search relationships and confusing the marketplace with regard to that Brand as well.
In a nutshell: Be original. Be unique. I just did some “pie” .com variations and there are many available. If you’re fast enough, PIExyz.com is avail…many others…the bad vibes aren’t a good way to start off…GOOGLE SEARCH for close variations and use Domain Search tools heavily…create your own sub-word to go with PIE, and launch your page so that you are in-the-market before someone else. Crowdsourcing business advice when you already have complaints coming in the door generates an impression of naivety. Not good during a funding round.
John Bielenberg says:
Jun 18, 2010
This is John Bielenberg, Founder and Director of Project M which is the group that invented and launched PieLab in Alabama. While I believe the name was conceived independently, the decision to proceed and launch even after communications with us was purposeful and deliberate.
What I cannot understand is why you would solicit the ill will that will be generated within the “greater good” space. It seems counter productive to everyone involved.
Very disappointing.
Melissa says:
Jun 18, 2010
Sorry hon, coincidence or not you’ll have more success with a name that has a better relationship to your specific cause. (As a designer, you should know that– after all, you’re telling a different story, right?) It’s an open source world out there, and it’s hard sometimes to tell where ideas come from– the creative consciousness is vast and originality is rare, if it’s even possible at all.
But . . . that isn’t a get-out-of-jail-free card for not doing your homework or your hard-work. (or in this case so much as a google search/email/phone call. it is a little hard to believe that all these similarities are an accident.)
Whether or not this was copied aside, from the standpoint of getting people behind you it just makes more sense to tell your own story in your own language. It’s just so much more compelling than parroting someone else’s.
admin says:
Jun 18, 2010
Hi John,
I can see that there are good folks on your side who love you and have come out swinging to defend your work.
I offer my sincerest apologies. I had not heard of your work before I conceived the name. I knew you existed when I registered the twitter account, yes.
I didn’t realize how much recognition you’d received. If I had, I wouldn’t have gone forward with the name.
This food cart is a small, quick project for me in my spare time. I have full time job plus a handful of other side projects. I just wanted to make a decision and move the project forward. I didn’t give it the full due diligence.
Sometimes you make a quick decision and it’s wrong.
I will change the name. Please grant me a little time to recollect myself, find and properly research a new name.
Derek Keevil says:
Jun 18, 2010
Probably a good move to change the name to avoid problems, but don’t take it too hard.
Seems to me a lot of trouble could have been avoided if the PieLab people had said “Hi there, we just wanted to let you know that we’re concerned about you using our name, let’s have a talk about this.”
Instead, Charlotte and Joey fell into the typical internet trap of assuming that you were being dishonest and posting nasty comments on your kickstarter page that (hopefully) they would never have said to your face.
I can’t blame you for being a little defensive after reading that, considering how much effort you’ve put into this already.
People get emotional on both sides when they’ve put a lot of effort into something near to their heart.
Should you change the name?
Yeah.
Were you trying to deceive people into thinking you were affiliated with the other PieLab?
Unlikely.
Should you have taken the AL PieLab conflict more seriously?
Possibly…
Should everyone have got so upset about this?
Definitely not.
Personally, I’ve got a chemistry background so would probably be a little wary eating at either place called “PieLab,” considering the stuff I used to work with in the lab…
Reena says:
Jun 18, 2010
I’m very glad you’ve made the decision to change the name of your project. The folks behind PieLab have worked very hard to build a meaningful experience and have reach far beyond Greensboro, Alabama.
I’m sure you didn’t have bad intentions, but from a creative stand point, the decision to move forward with the name was a bit lazy. If you are claiming to have an original idea, then please make it truly original.
Charlotte says:
Jun 18, 2010
Derek,
I would definitely have said what I said online to her in person. I believe adults can have healthy discussions about issues. Preferably over an adult beverage. I thought her kickstarter project was a great idea & I plan on backing her project after she changes the name.
I’m a passionate individual. I’m not angry about this situation. It is possible to say everything I’ve said without being angry while saying it.
A couple of my tweets were a little too inflammatory. I apologize for my e-tone.
I look forward to supporting the pie cart & maybe one day I’ll make it to Portland & get to eat a slice.
CD
brandon says:
Jun 18, 2010
Honestly, PieLab sounds like a place that is focused on pies. I can eat tons of “different things + conversation” and “= ideas”. The AL PieLabs doesn’t sound like pie is their main gig. Maybe THEY should come up with something more descriptive of what they actually do, as I don’t think PieLabs does them justice.
I say keep the name as-is. There are boat loads of businesses that share names across spaces and do so without snide comments and threats.
devin says:
Jun 18, 2010
Greensborites: I don’t see the problem. A tiny food cart 2000 miles away shares your name. Don’t be so prickish about it.
See also: Mint (finance, analytics), Apple (computers, records), St. Johns (university, university, university…), the aforementioned Barista. Names are not globally unique. I can almost guarantee that you’ve never eaten in a restaurant or drank in a bar with a GUID for a name.
There is no intentional confusion here; your hurt pride and opprobrium are disingenuous at best.
Deal.
Todd says:
Jun 18, 2010
1st came Pie Lab in New Zealand. They sell pie. They’re also a bar that sells alcohol.
2nd came PieLab in Alabama. They sell pie. They’re also a community space.
3rd Pie Lab in Oregon. They sell pie. They’re also a mobile social-economics game.
It now appears the Alabama PieLab wants the Oregon Pie Lab to change it’s name on the grounds that is has a nearly, but not identical name, and that they both sell pie despite serving completely different communities; BUT doesn’t want to change it’s own name because they believe they are substantially different from the New Zealand Pie Lab despite the fact that they both sell pie, their names are nearly but not identical, and they serve completely different communities.
Is that about right?
Matt says:
Jun 18, 2010
Skinny,
Great idea, and too bad those other PieLab folk are being so “now now” about it. Yours is still a great idea, and although I agree with others… not absolutely necessary for you to change, it is probably for the best. I am sure you can come up with an equally good — if not *Better* name!
Piepal, pie ‘n the sky, pie around, pie n pi, pie 2 the people, pie a la cart! pie 4u, can i haz pie? pie anxiety, (*no*) pie co-lab (as in collaboration), pie game, slice of life, pie endeavor, pie calling, pie one on… I could go on, but you have obviously been through the brainstorming process, and surely will cook up something fresh and un-like others.
Best wishes on the cart. Pie is good. – m
Eric Hillerns says:
Jun 19, 2010
Crystal,
It sounds as though you’ve decided to change the name. It’s the right decision under these circumstances. Right out of school, I worked for a company who went through a similar ordeal. The plaintiff argued that (1) they had used the name for a longer period of time, (2) that the average person “on the street” might confuse the two entities, and (3) that while the two companies’ activities were not exactly the same, they could be at some point. From a legal perspective, it was an open and shut case. They were protecting the integrity of their brand.
Given the construction of the name, there is potential confusion about the relationship with PieLab, which would have eventually caught up with you. The addition of PDX suggests an extension. To be honest, when I first heard about your project, I thought that there was a relationship with the Alabama project, and that PieLab(s) might be making their way to other parts of the country. I met Mr. Bielenberg briefly at Compostmodern last year and have been following Project M for years. Their work is incredible, and among creatives, they are a well-known entity.
Now, with all that said, I absolutely know that without a second thought, that your comments regarding intent were entirely sincere. I wholly believe that there was no intention to use a name that belonged to another entity and that the scale and focus of your endeavor was intended to be considerably different. But the world is simply becoming smaller. Regardless of the content or tone of your correspondence, you had contact with PieLab. With your creative mind, that would have seemed enough to change course once you became aware of the situation, no matter how much you work you had behind the effort.
So, you made a mistake? No problem. Chalk it up to experience. Your project is going to be excellent. I know that to be true. Make it entirely yours and make it amazing. I would expect nothing less from you. And consider yourself lucky that this came about now, and not six months (and countless more hours) into your effort.
I hope that the folks in Alabama, and others who are passionate about those efforts, will only continue to grow. From my view, they too made mistakes in their tone in response, but I certainly understand how it happened. When the time comes and all parties find themselves in the same place, I hope that glasses will be raised. There are too many smart, well-intentioned folks involved on both sides to not agree to work at working together.
Keep it up, sister. You’ll be amused that as a postscript (as I’m writing this), I’m currently listening to PieCast, via KCRW in Santa Monica. Our friends at Whiffies are going to be pissed!
Kindly,
Eric
maxogden says:
Jun 21, 2010
call it ‘the portland pie laboratory’ and tell all the uptight alabama people to calm down. they didn’t invent the words ‘pie’ or ‘lab’, they just stuck them together. anyone can do that